Do you believe in God? The debate.

Arachne • There are two ways to read this: godisnowhere.

God is now here and god is nowhere. I take the latter stance. Why? There is no proof of his/her/their existence nor was there ever proof. One might as well believe in Santa or the tooth fairy.

If there is a god(s), have him/her/them create a boulder so heavy he/she/they cannot lift it. Yes this is a paradox.

Arachne • The concept of “now” is just that: a concept. How can “now” exist when it has one foot in the past and the other in the future? Even before a mouth opens to perform speech, the brain has formed thoughts into words and words into sentence(s). In essence, what one says in the supposed “now” are past thoughts projecting themselves into the future via speech. Why do we even bother with “now” when “now” does not exist?Present time, precise moments, and present circumstances define “now.” As time moves forward, how can “now” be idle? It defines logic.

Reality is also a concept. If looking at what defines reality we could walk away with the notion that everyone experiences a different reality. A microbiologist or a physicist may not see the world as everyone else. Therefore, their reality would differ based on their being able to see things that most people don’t. We can’t see gravity, but it is there. In addition, gravity can be reproduced where there is little gravity simply by adding velocity. Reality 1- the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them 2- a thing that is actually experienced or seen 3- the quality of being lifelike 4- the state or quality of having existence or substance.

As for god, those in power (past and present) use him/her/them as a tool for manipulation. There has been so much bloodshed in the name of god than there has been for anything else. In the event no one noticed, god blesses Amerika in the form of a bible which indicates favoritism to xtainity. Bah humbug!

I am still reading comments.


Arachne • My God: The All Powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster~

He is all powerful. He is so powerful that he can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it. Imagine him performing such a paradoxical thing! He is infinite in age because he was here before any of us knew what time was as time did not exist. My time started to exist for me when I was born. As I got older, I realized that there was a time before me and that there will be time after me. My god is my world and I am his. How do I know my god is a he? I was told by him as he spoke to me in spirit. Also, I read it somewhere. Sometimes he tells me to kill those that do not believe in him, but then I think how morally wrong that would be so I do defy him there. He has threatened me with eternal damnation, but I say "what the flock!" I will rot like a dog. I do love him though. You know what I mean don't you?


Arachne • I am my own god capable of creation and destruction. With this capacity I am responsible for my actions or lack thereof and thus I take the blame and/or credit. Do I have super powers? No. I am human just like all y'all. Acknowledgment of someone who does not exist equates to lunacy. How many adults here TRULY believe in Santa, The Tooth Fairy, or The Flying Spaghetti Monster? To believe in god is the same thing. If anyone has had the opportunity to listen/watch Richard Dawkins talk with creationists, you would find that creationists cannot back up what they say. However, they do a wonderful job talking in circles. Me thinks Dawkins forms an elenchus much like Socrates did when dealing with Euthyphro. And like Euthyphro admission will not be had despite knowing one does not believe what they say they believe.

Arachne • Addendum for Rudy, I am not an atheist as I subscribe to no label. Thank you, but no thank you.

Arachne • Fred, please do not repeat what you wrote yesterday about linguistics. In my opinion, I wrote and write in clear English poking fun (in the event you did not notice) at people who believe in that which does not exist. Not only is it hysterical that people believe in something that has never been proven to exist, but they take it so far as to worship that which has never been proven to exist.

In extreme cases, killing or suicide is necessary because that which cannot be proven to exist requires it. (They either read it somewhere or someone told them.) Cough–choke...where was I? Oh yeah.... What do you think of those who believe in space aliens and abductions? Would you question their beliefs? Would you ask for proof? OR, would you just believe them without question? Do you get gifts for you kids and tell them you bought everything OR do you LIE to them by telling them Santa came to your house? If you lie to them, why do you do it?

Ah hem. Did you just ask me to define the concept I reject? Whoa Nelly! The burden of proof is on you to prove that what you believe in actually exists. Go for it man and make your case. I would love to debate you. Let’s not deal in metaphors. Let’s just deal with belief systems starting with yours. It is far better to get down and dirty than to play word games.

If I had my way, this is the way things would be:

Everyone is free to worship or not to worship as they please. However, no structures will be made for the purpose of worship. What you do at home with yourself, and STRICTLY YOURSELF, is your business. Grouping for the purpose of worship will not be allowed. Grouping for the purpose of religion would create division. You are not your religion. You are you and if you really believe in your god(s), then you and your god(s) will be content in a totally PERSONAL relationship. In order to keep children mentally healthy, inoculation from indoctrination would be mandatory. No child would be exempt.

Arachne • Rudy, you know damned well Dawkins is a staunch atheist and I believe he wears his label well. As I do not subscribe to labels, I won’t wear that one as it is a divider. However, human would work just fine as that is the one thing that we all have in common and to which label we all can subscribe to. Then again, how many humans are humane?

You have a point in regard to who had the meatballs to come up with a spaghetti monster when there are so many types of pasta. As our common ground is that we are all human, let's use pasta monster to level the field. Is that better now? No pasta shall be left behind. :D

Arachne • Quoting Rudy • "Some people hear voices, without real voices out there. They are diagnosed as schizophrenia. All of the prophets fall in that category."

Paranoid schizophrenia is often incompletely characterized as an illness in which individuals have auditory hallucinations or misperceptions. The hallmark of schizophrenia, however, is a profound disability, usually rendering the individual incapable of normal daily functioning.

What is the evidence that the prophets did not hear real voices?
What is the evidence that the prophets had disabled lives?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What reliable historic evidence do you have of the prophets' existence other than the bible?

You know if these guys really existed, they also could have been tripping out on schrooms (Psilocybin) or something. Right? Psychedelics can also create auditory hallucination which could mimic schizophrenia. If not using at the time of hearing, consider flashback as a cause. If no longer using, then consider Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder. Ya huh.

Arachne • @Jagu - Get a dictionary.

staunch 1 (stônch, stänch) also stanch (stônch, stänch, stnch)
adj. stauncher also stancher, staunchest also stanchest
1. Firm and steadfast; true. See Synonyms at faithful. * Although synonymous with faithful, faith has squat to do with FIRM, STEADFAST, nor TRUE. Dawkins is a firm atheist. Is that better? Faith? Fugghedaboudit!

2. Having a strong or substantial construction or constitution.

staunch1
adj
1. loyal, firm, and dependable a staunch supporter

1. solid or substantial in construction

1. (Transport / Nautical Terms) Rare (of a ship, etc.) watertight; seaworthy

[(originally: watertight): from Old French estanche, from estanchier to stanch]

Arachne • Quoting Fred • @ Arachne: religion is both private and public by nature. To prohibit the public part of it is to deny religious freedom: the beginning of dictatorship, as the history of the 20th century has shown.So take care in limiting the rights of other persons'convictions.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In my little utopia, I would surely as the sun shines BAN RELIGION. Why? It serves nothing. If anything, it creates division and hatred. Heck, just look at the right wing jokers pulling their god out of the rectum...god this and god that! For what? Power? Oh yeah!

Dictator my eye! If anything, removing religion would be liberating. Just think there would be no more signs saying "GOD HATES FAGS." There would be no more pointing fingers and singing "my god is better than your god" and "if you don't believe in god you are going to hell." Wow! I would love to rid the world of that garbage.

Yo, did you ever analyze the book of Genesis? I did and I think you should. Tell me what you see. I have this feeling you are going to pretend you are looking at Rorschach cards instead of what is really there.

BTW, I used to be a catholic, but now I am just ME.

Arachne • Joanna, I thank ya kindly. I can only my myself. Then again, I am my own god and not in a delusional sense. Think about who you could be if you let your hair down and did not conform to the cookie cutter machinery that is out there (society a/k/a Dick and Jane Norm). Oh, it is all beige. Can't you see it? Although this is the land of the virtual, you can bet your butt (and win), that I am absolutely the same in real life. Cheers!

Arachne • Quoting Rudy • Arachne and Jagu, spend a bit of time talking with someone who's worked with intoxicated individuals, regardless of the substance or route of access, and you'll see that these folks aren't very prophetic - or coherent - at all.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rudy, try becoming an substance user/abuser especially hallucinogens (oh, throw in alcohol for good measure) and then come talk to me. Until then, talk to the hand!

Yo mang, I still remember my first trip (I was 13) on two hits of purple haze. The colors that my black and white TV had were amazing and that fact that I only heard every other word was weird to say the least. And the voices...wow! Did I tell you of the little people who ran up and down my arm? Mind you, when you trip, you KNOW that these things are not real unless you beez crazy to begin with.

Arachne • Joanna, would it then be logical to say that you do not in fact believe in a god? Nature is what we are part of, god is something some fool made up. Do you think you will get off the fence and take a stand? Those pickets you are sitting on will get uncomfortable after awhile.


Arachne • Rudy, don't thank me as I did not answer my own query and don't think as you might get hurt. Man, can you assume, but not at the expense of you making an ass out of me. Do you get my drift?

Trip first. Talk to me later and tell me what you have experienced. Apparently, you know nothing based on experience. Wow! That is kind of like toting a bible...preach, but know not.

NEXT...

Arachne • Quoting Robert S. • Arachne – Does the following get close to what you might think and say to others?

The same question is posed to any other contributor who chooses to answer.

We recognize or would like an organization openly dedicated to the acceptance of Man’s true nature—that of a carnal beast, living in a cosmos that is indifferent to our existence.

*No organizations please and I only speak for myself. Humans are animals (body) with reason (mind) who choose to think and/or act in certain ways using their developed facility and the cosmos are indifferent to our existence. Throughout the universe, creation comes at the expense of death. Then again, the same could be said for earth i.e., fires, volcanic eruptions, autumn, any corpse left to rot, etc.

Use (any-name) or symbol that best suits the nature of we… who are carnal by birth—people who feel no battles raging between our thoughts and feelings, we, who do not embrace the concept of a soul imprisoned in a body. (Any-name) represents pride, liberty, and individualism—qualities often defined as Evil by those who worship external deities, who feel there is a war going on between their minds and emotions.

*Bugger off with the carnal by birth as it is stupid. Check the definition okay. Yin/yang or polarity best suits the nature of who we are, then again, we need night to recognize the day, fall to recognize spring, winter to recognize summer. Opposite yet necessary. Look at a common battery and you will see that it too has a negative and positive side. Some use words like good and evil. One human’s good may be another human’s evil, but that depends on perspective. Imagine a flat roller coaster. The roller coaster would represent the peaks and troughs. When you remove the peaks, it is boring as you are riding a flatline ride. Life requires contrast and ups and downs to make it interesting. As such we feel battles raging between our thoughts and feelings because we are not robots. Although some can be viewed as bots, automatons, drones, and zombies. Soul? Nah! If I die tomorrow, I will rot in the same manner as anything else that kicks the bucket; I will be recycled. As such, I could come back as grass that some horse will eat and later let out as dung. I, being me, represent pride, liberty, and individualism (and so can you). If someone is dumb enough to take these qualities as evil, they need help.

Man—using his brain—invented all the Gods, doing so because many of our species cannot accept or control their personal egos, feeling compelled to conjure up one or a multiplicity of characters who can act without hindrance or guilt upon whims and desires.

*Early humans, using their brains, invented the gods to explain things that they could not understand. You can call it ignorance. However, as humans got smarter (some of them), they realized that these gods or a god could be used to control other (not so smart) humans. As for the rest of what you wrote, throw it in file 13 (garbage).

All Gods are thus externalized forms, magnified projections of the true nature of their creators, personifying aspects of the universe or personal temperaments which many of their followers find to be troubling.

*If you look at the pantheons, those gods had the qualities of humans and were fallible. Period.

Worshiping any God is thus worshiping, by proxy, those who invented that God. Since we understand that all Gods are fiction, we do not bend a knee in worship to—or seek friendship or unity with—such mythical entities; (any-name) places him/her/itself at the center of his/her/its own subjective universe as his/her/its own highest value.

*Worshiping any god is stupid since god does not exit.

We are, thus, our own “Gods,” and as beneficent “deities” we can offer love to those who deserve it and deliver our wrath (within reasonable limits) upon those who seek to cause us—or that which we cherish—harm.

*What you state is human nature.

However, such self-deification is not for everyone, since it requires total responsibility for one’s choices and actions, and the realization of a social contract which makes for a civilized state of being. So our way, the way of (any-name) is not meant to be “The Way” for all people, since we consider it a sad truth that only a small percentage of our species has the intelligence, adherence to reason, and self-discipline to handle our perspective.

*Those are you words and not mine. I have addressed this issue above.

Arachne • Quoting Robert S. • Sorry Arachne, don't understand your answer. Are you agreeing, partially agreeing or not agreeing at all?

* As you stated anyone can answer, I answered. If you read what I wrote, you would note where agreement or disagreement is had. If you seek clarity from a specific answer, do address me.

I never attributed any of the words I wrote to something you said, so, no putting of words in your mouth.

* Where I indicate "Those are your words and not mine. I have addressed this issue above." I am saying to you that your last paragraph has already been covered in my above answers.

I apologize for the confusion as I was in a rush.

Arachne • Joanna, sometimes difficult choices have to me made. In the case you make of your child versus your sister's child, to fence sit would cause both to die. Would it be beyond reason that you save your own child? Do you think that your sister would hold it against you? I understand why you would feel bad in choosing your own over another as that other is close to you. However, our instinct is to survive.

Arachne • Alfredo, are you familiar with Orwell's 1984? Do you remember The Ministry of Love? Do you remember O'Brien saying "How many fingers am I holding up Winston?" If you don't, it was expected that Winston say what O'Brien wanted him to say. The same holds true for the church and religion in general. If that is love, we are in a world of trouble.

I as an ex catholic I can tell you that I never felt any love from god. As much as I was told about him and forced to do and say things that went against my grain because of him, the bugger wasn't there. How could I possibly feel something that was not there to feel? As a kid, I was forced to go to church and I really hated it. Sit, kneel, stand and repeat after me do not sit well with me since there was so much hypocrisy. Do as I say and not as I do. Bah, pish, and fie!

YOU SAID: Once you experience the God =Love, nothing becomes the same. Once you find out you are created for eternity, even though you must pass through death, your time in this life becomes meaningful. I was created human, and human will continue to be. No grass, no worm, no water. Created for eternity.

Are you familiar with cycles of birth and death from the subatomic partical level to to cosmic level? Check into Fenymen diagrams (particle collision). Also, find out how stars and planets are born.

When you say: "I see in those who abandoned their catholic faith, they still have in their minds the religion and church that was when they abandoned, and wońt accept it might have changed to welcome them again. Such anger! With a God of love, such anger!"

What people are you looking at? How do you arrive at that conclusion? What evidence do you have to back it up? Are there available statistics?

You say that religion has evolved? How so? Have priests stopped raping young boys by coming out of the closet and admitting they are gay with pedophile tendencies?

As I don't believe in god, do you think I do not find my life meaningful? What would happen if tomorrow it was found that your god died and will never come back. What would you do?

As you state you will continue to be a human once you die, can you explain that?

YOU SAID: It happens when humans try to put themselves as the center of the universe, and their will and individualism as the only moral roadmap. They say "my freedom stops when I touch your freedom" but they are meaning "your freedom stops when you touch my freedom", and impose upon all who dońt think like them an intellectual fascism: if you think otherwise, then you are stupid

YOU ALSO SAID: 84% of he World's population believes in deity (God). The ones saying "God does not exist, to think it does is being stupid" are calling stupid billions of people, and telling us they are the only smart ones, and that we must conform to that notion just because they say so. I dońt buy in

*Intellectual fascism? You jest right? If 84% of the population were into incest, should I play follow the leader? You will have to forgive me if I do not jump on your propaganda bandwagon, but it is not appealing nor rational. It is, however, stupid. Yes there are billions of gullible people out there who are flock to the shepherd. Baah sheep baah. No one is asking you to conform, however, how do you know god exists?

Question time...Do you put all people before yourself? Are you the center of your universe? If not, who is your center and why are they your center? I personally think that believing and worshiping something that does not exist is lunacy. Would you think me crazy if I really believed in the flying pasta monster in the exact the same way you believe in your god? Wouldn't you question?

Have you actually read the bible? I have. I read the King James version which I still have in its marked up and battered state.

YOU SAID: Still prefer the God of Love, and no anger

I would prefer people not being sheep.

Arachne • Fred, before I even enter a dialogue with you, please explain to me how you KNOW god exists. Speaking of freedom, how do you feel about homosexuality, lesbianism, and abortion?

Arachne • Fred, you can interpret all you wish, however, only the writer knows what he/she is really saying. The bible is also interpreted isn't it? Have you heard of the band called Bad Religion? American Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12kcpP-8jfM
The Voice of God is Government http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K_xZcjsVuw Get into the groove good buddy!

Arachne • Alfredo, how do you find someone/something that does not exist? So, I should go looking for that which does not exist? Is that what you are saying? You believe that when you die, your body and spirit will come back together? If that is so, where are all the people who died since the beginning of time? Shouldn't their spirit be back with their bodies by now? How large would that population be? Where might they be located? How do we go about finding them? As you say god is all about experience and fact, what are the experiences and facts? Do share. As god is the center of your universe, how do you feel about your children, wife, mother, father, sister, brother, cousin, etc? If you have children, do they come in second, third, fourth, or fifth? How do you manage your resources?

You have read the bible for 33 years. That is impressive. So, you think there is a problem with the King James bible huh? Can you tell me what is wrong with this book and what is right with your book?

One does not have to be angry to say that someone or something is stupid. Where do you get the idea that I am angry? Admission, I do have potty mouth.

How does it take courage to be a catholic? Are there snipers using them for target practice? Explain yourself as what you say does not sound like it rings true.

Why would you require a false picture if you believe in god? Are you saying that those that do not believe in god hide themselves?

I am happy as is and will not blame myself for something as bizarre as not believing in something that does not exist. Lighting? HA HA HA Good one. What happens if a child grows up in a household were no religion and no god exists, how does god embrace that child or make that child aware of his existence? This particular family live on a little island in the middle of nowhere. They have no computer, TV, cell phone or landline. Every missionary who has ever been alive has tried to reach this island, but they never make it.

Are you saying that if I want to experience god I have to set aside anger/resentment that I do not have for a thing that does not exist? ,I am not angry or resentful so please do not assume such.

How did you become indoctrinated?

Arachne • @ Fred, how does any religion (including yours) contribute to the well functioning of societies and states? I can't speak for Tim, but the idea of creating anything called "Covenant of the Knowing" would indicate "lack of knowledge." If one is knowing, there is no room for inquiry and I rather like inquiry.

Arachne • @ Alfredo, what do you know about the catholic bible? Can you tell me its history?

From what I understand, the end times brings people back to their body at an unknown location. Right? What makes you so sure OTHER than your faith? To test your faith, let us do a little mental experiment. Let us say that I break both your legs, arms, and wrists and leave you in a forest. Will your god save you or will you die? In this game, you cannot help yourself as you must rely on god the all powerful one. Okay. What do you think will happen to you?

Saying a population is huge tells me nothing. You specifically stated: I do have answers to all the rest of questions. If you have the answers, please share them in detail. I am sure everyone would like to know.

I have to die to find out something is that correct? How do you know you find out something when you die? When other animals die, do they find out something as well. We must remember that we are animals (mammals).

You failed to answer this question: As you say god is all about experience and fact, what are the experiences and facts? Do share.

You have established that god is the center of YOUR universe. What lies beyond the center?

Are you saying that without being under god's love and guidance, you would not love your family? IF god is the source of all love, how do you account for those who love without believing in god?

Are you familiar with economics? What percentage of your resources do you put toward god and others? How much is left for yourself?

What happens if a child grows up in a household were no religion and no god exists, how does god embrace that child or make that child aware of his existence? - I asked YOU this question.

"How did you become indoctrinated?" Ooooh, it took a lot of time to wash my mind...

You admitted you were brainwashed. Interesting.

Must I reiterate that I am not angry? I am one of the happiest people I know.


Arachne • @Fred, plainly speaking and without metaphors, can love exist without god? If it can (and it does), why then is god necessary to you?

What is moral freedom and moral responsibility? Who can judge what is moral or immoral? What is good what is bad? What makes it so? As the matter is subjective, I would love to hear what YOU have to say. You will not be able to speak objectively as it won’t apply.

Moral defined: 1) concerned with the principle of right and wrong behavior and the goodness and badness of human character 2) conforming to accept standards of behavior

Conform defined: 1) comply with rules, standards, or conventions 2) be similar in form or type

Rules = control. Standards = something used to measure the norm or model in comparative evaluations - principles of honorable, decent. Convention = a way in which something is usually done - socially acceptable behavior

This sounds like robot building. What say you to this?

Let me see if I have this straight, the church thinks that gay marriage should not be because it goes against natural law, but that it would accept the law, but fail to marry couples who love each other. Is that correct? How does the church feel about other animals who engage in same sex behavior as it is part of their nature? *scratches head If natural law...nature, same sex...hum.. Could it be that god only wants to control some animals?

As you are pro-life and pro-life adherents must comply to not only the principle of 'not killing,' but also to the best way this can be reached - as an objective, why is there WAR? Don't you think that war should be abolished as so many adult humans die as opposed to the fraction of fetuses that are aborted?

From what I hear, war is money and aborted fetuses are future wage slaves and tax payers.


Arachne • @Robert B., based on this statement: The system forces us to make conscessions to our morality. It forces us to serve satan by making us choose what we hope is the lesser of two evils but the sin is in serving this system in the first place.

Do you believe satan really exists? Please tell me no.

Arachne • Alfredo, my name is Maggie not Maghie.

Civilians do not create war, governments do. When men and women go to war, we loose family members that we have come to know and love. Some of these family members have children, mothers, fathers, et al. Those that died were alive and functioning as people. The same cannot be said about fetuses.

I understand love, but I wonder if you do. As I don’t believe in god and you have not proven god to exist, how can you say something that applies to you “Love=God” when you can’t understand it?

I know more people than you care to image, however, your assumption leaves you being an ass.

Trying to convert someone who has already been there (god/religion), but who sees that it bogus is like trying to turn water into wine. No way Jose.

Arachne • Robert B., I have made these same arguments with the BOS (Brotherhood of Satan), and they are just as delusional as those that believe in god. I won't even bother with your words because you cannot see that humans are both sides of the coin good/bad, negative/positive. You have embraced ignorance so I leave you to enjoy it.

Arachne • Robert S., do you know how ridiculous you sound when you insinuate that Roi reveres Hitchens as a god? Look at who is taunting who now? You are a big baby when someone gets on you but you think nothing of riding someone else.

YOU are taunting Roi and for what? He does not believe in your fairy tale of god taken from your low level of ignorance?

You and Joanna are a joke with your Google, gargoyles, and gargling stepping away from the topic at hand. Even in The Void, off topic discussions are given warning by mods. Too bad the same does not apply here.

Calling a spade a spade in plain simple folk talk, I call your actions STUPID. Oh go ahead and flag me because you really make me want to BARF. Yup, I have potty mouth again. If I were able, I would negatively rep you or thumb down just about everything you say. This goes for a couple of other diehards as well. Back up your preaching with LOGIC or STFU. You may have to Google STFU.

Arachne • Robert S., I would not come to your assistance if you were on fire.

Ludo, view me as foul if you will, however, from MY PERSPECTIVE, Robert S. has been quite foul and I have flagged him for his rude comments to Roi. Do I care if I am banned? No. I speak my peace and will continue to do so.

Arachne • Robert S., earlier today you wished people to judge me. Is that correct? As you are a xtain take heed to the following:

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.

The Gospel according to
St. Matthew
7

Judging Others
Lk. 6.3738, 4142
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Arachne • When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross. - Sinclair Lewis (1935)

Jeanne  • ...and it will visionary. :-)

Arachne • Joanna said to Roi - However, I could defend you too - I would say that you are someone who cares passionately about something deeply...

Joanna, could and would are not solid. Have you heard of coulda, woulda, shoulda? You did NOT defend him. Did you even read his reasoning? Perhaps not. I notice a pattern with you Joanna. You like to jump on bandwagons. Examine your own actions.

Joanna  • It's true Arachne, I do want to be loved! ;-)

Harry  • ........Good "Straight Up" Comment Arachne........re Flag and Cross

“Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic/religious fervor, for patriotism/religion is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.

And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry.

Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism/religion, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so.

How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.” – ?Julius Caesar

Arachne • @Jeanne - Roi and I have freedom of speech and can and will stay if we so desire.
Also, if you view me as Joanna, storm like, that is cool with me. However, as you have only been on for 5 days, I suggest you go back and read the thread from about 12 days ago. What do you say? Can you do that?

Arachne  • @Joanna, you want to be loved? Hum.

Jeanne  • hmmm. to be honest, I don't care if you and Roi stay around for ever. I popped that's all, from the constant whining. my foul.

Nor do I have any image of you or Roi other than what i've been here to see. If this feud is 12 days old...that tells me a lot anyway.

Jagu • Arachne, I see you as a candid, blunt, nothing to hide, no axe to grind, a surprise for some, a delight for me. Keep it up. if you don't I will have to complain to the moderator that the thread is no more fun. :-))))))))))))). It was so refreshing this morning to read your post. It had vigor, it had vibes to shake up few of meek heart, and it had thunder and a roar. Now some may feel offended because it did not agree with their religious sensibility. But that is their problem between their god and them. Keep it up, please.

Arachne • For Jeanne - The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions. - Frank Zappa

Joanna • Arachne, you said " For Jeanne - The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on."

My view on this is different. I think the Garden of Eden story is saying that when we behave selfishly, instead of striving for the common good, we destroy the thing which sustains us.

I relate this story directly to the way that shareholder capitalism, powered by self-interest, is now destroying Earth's life-giving ecological processes.

Arachne • @Joanna~ Do you see that knowledge is something that is not supposed to be and that if you seek knowledge you sin?

Tell me, do you seek knowledge or do you play follow the leader?

Arachne • Joanna said ~ I think the pure atheist would reject all these views and say that human lives do not have a purpose, and that existence does not have a purpose, but rather that it is all random chance that is bound to occur over massively large chunks of space, matter and time.

Joanna, what is a pure atheist? How do you come to the conclusion that a “pure atheist” would “say that human lives do not have a purpose, and that existence does not have a purpose...?"

Although I do not believe in god, I do not subscribe to the label atheist and I do think (not believe) that human lives have a purpose, and existence does have a purpose. So tell me, how do you draw your assumption?

Joanna • Hi Arachne, I don't believe I have drawn any assumptions, I choose my words carefully so people know I am not stating "facts" but rather expressing an opinion.

I attempted to define a pure atheist as that seems to be an end point of a spectrum, and therefore worth defining.

My understanding is atheists are inclined to believe existence serves no greater purpose, but just "is".

If you do not subscribe to my definition of pure atheist - no problem! My guess is that you fall elsewhere on the spectrum I have attempted to describe (probably poorly), or that, as I do, you fall in many positions at once.

Arachne • Why do you attempt to define that which you do not know? Where have you obtained your understanding of atheists? Again, I do not believe in god
and COULD wear the atheist label and will for the purpose of this reply.
Existence serves a purpose called experience. If there were no purpose to
life, we might choose to take our lives, but that is not how it works.
Just like you, we are human, have family, friends, and emotions (such as
love, anger, joy, sorry, etc.). We work, contribute to our community,
involve ourselves in politics, and we look just like you...human. We,
actually I can only speak for myself, enjoy life to its fullest and gain
knowledge from our experiences. I created this saying which I enjoy using:
For all things a purpose and a purpose for all things. However, there is
no god in the equation.

Joanna • Arachne! Surely you don't see my comments as an effort to create division! I'm all about recognizing the essential humanness of us all! I don't have a view of "us" and "them".

My attempted definitions are formed based on my own finite experience.

My motivation is exploring ideas and learning from each other.

Your definition of what it all means to you is another point on the spectrum, which is probably infinitely divisible.

I don't believe there are "right" or "wrong" positions on the spectrum of belief, but I would like to see humanity unite in compassion for each other and all the world's species.

Arachne • Joanna, surely I do see your comments as an effort to create division. I see you creating an us versus them and a right and wrong.

I too would like to see humanity unite, however, with such belief systems in play, either they would all have to be dissolved (this will never happen) or there would have to be some gods eliminated so that the division ends. This too will never happen. Then again, even if one god were chosen and worshiped world wide by all believers, you would still have those that do not believe.
                   
ALEXANDAR • Sorry , language barrier. I like the idea that human soul belongs to God .But the path to God sometimes is very complicated and long .
Is it enough clear @

Arachne • How do you know the human soul belongs to god? If the path to god is
sometimes very complicated and long, why bother with the path at all? What
makes you believe that god exists?

Arachne • Alexandar, you still did not answer my question.

Reiterated: How do you know the human soul belongs to god? If the path to god is
sometimes very complicated and long, why bother with the path at all? What
makes you believe that god exists?

Arachne • Robert S., why do you believe in god? How did you become indoctrinated? Why do you so adamantly defend what has never been proven? Is god just a theory that has yet to be proven?

Although the idea of the atom, the smallest, indivisible component of matter, was first proposed in 400 BC, Aristotle didn't like it. He claimed that there was no smallest part of matter and that different substances were made up of proportions of fire, air, earth, and water. As there were of course no experimental means available to test either view, Aristotle's prevailed mainly because people liked his philosophy better.

Of course it was later proven. Can the same be said of your god?

Arachne • Matt, didn't Socrates drink hemlock and die? Mind you, he did have the opportunity to flee, however, he did not. He was found guilty and took his punishment like a man. The poor man was guilty of questioning. As you may know, Socratic method is used in law and education.

Arachne • @Ludo~

Frank Zappa is one of many that I have quotes from. If you would like, you
may find some interesting quotes here and thus know of my mind:
http://www.mentalanarchy.com/quotes.html

Thank you for reading The Forbidden Fruit in its three parts. Although
long and unfinished, I think it gets my message across to some who are
willing to explore sans blinders. Tis odd how a modern society can still
believe in that which is so mentally detrimental.

Here is a cute little ditty:

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to
heaven:  "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their
mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and
there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake.
He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV
<http://www.evilbible.com/February.htm#Feb%2026> )
I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally
tells all men to cut off their privates.

I wonder how many xtian men have done this for their faith?

Arachne

"Opinions,"
said Lord Palmerston "are stronger than armies." One of the first
conditions of any institution being altered is that people should come
to imagine it as altered. The great difficulty of the reformer is to
get people to exert their imagination to that extent. ~ From the book:
Darwinism and Politics by David G. Ritchie

Arachne • Jagu said: Arachne,
Division can be created by any uttered or expressed word or phrase. Joanna is not creating division, but people who read it may. By charging Joanna of creating division, you are creating division yourself. Divisions are inevitable, just the thoughts, ideas, principles, dogmas, beliefs, words, language, culture, etc. vary. Even nature has created division by creating diversity and variety.

Arachne • Agreed. Thank you for pointing that out my friend.

Arachne • Matt said • Yes, a very accurate interpretation, Arachne. But his guilt came down to those who did not believe his system of thinking (also, partly his rejection on specific gods and goddesses).

Arachne • @ Matt ~ Should a person be sentenced to death because of the way they think? Socrates, through the use of questions, sought truth. Should a person be sentenced to death for the rejection of any god/goddess? I think we were very lucky to have someone of Socrates' caliber alive and accounted for by people that knew him (Plato and Xenophon) as well as those who made fun of him (Aristophanes). Can the same be said about god or his supposed son jesus? Historical evidence is lacking.

We have Socrates accounted for by his student Plato and Plato accounts for himself. Aristotle also accounts for himself with his writing and, as you know, he was a student of Plato. Why is it that the philosophers can be accounted for although they came long before the supposed anointed one? How would you account for that? Was someone not paying attention to the man of fiction called jesus?

Arachne • Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied:

1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

4) Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

5) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)

6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)

7) If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)

8) It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 NAB)

9) On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 NAB)

A lot of Christians ignore what Jesus actually says in the Bible. They also tend to add things to the actual words to make them say something else. If you honestly and truthfully read these quotes, without adding to them, it is very easy to see that jesus is not saying that god will think about your prayers. He says god will grant all your prayers. Clearly, god doesn’t grant all prayers and this proves that jesus was a habitual liar.


Arachne • Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Judge other religions for not following Christ:

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Here are my two personal favorites:

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

Arachne • I do not accept the Bible as god’s word because it contains thousand of errancies and contradictions that can not be solved, only rationalized. I refuse to accept jesus as my personal savior, for his behavior and teachings often expose one who should be escaped and not worshiped. I ask that you read this pamphlet in light of the bible’s teachings; Christians should be “open to reason” (James 3:17 RSV), that we should “reason together” (Isaiah 1:18) and “he who hates correction will die” (Proverbs 15:10) to understand my perspective that the bible has MANY shortcomings.
1. According to your Bible I am to believe that human kind is sinful for Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge. Why are we being punished for the original sin? After all, they ate the forbidden fruit, we didn’t. Reason would lead one to say it’s their problem, not ours. Even the bible contradicts itself by claiming in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.”

2. We are told that the Bible has no scientific errors and is utterly perfect/protected, yet it says the bat is a bird (Leviticus 11:13 & 19), hares chew the cud (Leviticus 11:5-6), and some fowl (Leviticus 11:20-21) and insects (Leviticus 11:22-23) have four legs.

3. Heaven is supposed to be a perfect place. It is of course, the place you strive for and name “salvation”. Yet, it experienced a war (Revelation 12:7). How can there be a war in a perfect place and if it happened before why couldn’t it happen again? Why would I want to go to a place in which war can occur? That’s exactly what I’m trying to escape, aren’t you?

4. We are told salvation is obtained by faith alone (John 3:18 & 36) and then the Bible claims that it is repentance that shall save us (2 Peter 3:9) yet Jesus told a man to follow the Commandments-Matthew 19:16-1 8 (saving by works)-if he wanted eternal life. So which way is it and how do you know your belief is the correct one?

Arachne • 5. According to the text there are 29 cities listed in Joshua 15:21-32. One need only count them to see that biblical math is not to be trusted. The total is 36.

6. Surely you don’t believe Ecclesiastes 1:9 RSV (“What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun”)? How many cities had an atomic bomb dropped on them prior to 1945, and how many people walked on the moon before 1969?

7. If the Bible is our moral guide, then how can it make pornographic statements such as: “...they may eat their own dung and drink their own piss with you” (2 Kings 18:27)? Also consult Numbers 31 where a whole tribe of people, including the elderly and children are slaughtered. The only survivors were the virginal women, who were later raped by the “just and perfect” Moses and his men. Is that what you want your children reading on Sunday?

8. If God created everything, (Colossians 1:16, Ephesians 3:9, Revelation 4:11 & John 1:3), then he did create the world’s evil (Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38). Thus, he is responsible. Any being who could create situations such as rape, death, malnutrition, disease, molestation and murder is certainly not fit for worship.

9. For justice to exist, punishment must fit the crime. No matter how many bad deeds one commits in this world, there is a limit. Yet, hell’s punishment is infinitely greater. It’s eternal. Shouldn’t a sinner suffer until remorse is felt and the crime is atoned for? What “justice” is there in infinite damnation?

10. Jesus said, “whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire” (Matthew 5:22). Yet, he himself did so repeatedly, as Matthew 27:19, Luke 11:40 & 12:20 show. Shouldn’t he be in danger of hell too? Jesus also told us to “Love your enemies; bless them that curse you," but ignored his own advice by repeatedly denouncing his opposition. Matthew 12:34 (“0 generation of vipers”), and Matthew 23 :27 (“... hypocrites... ye are like unto whited sepulchres.“) are excellent examples of hypocrisy. If Jesus himself is a sinner by his own admission then surely he can not be the “perfect lamb of god”.
13 seconds ago

Arachne • 11. Except those of biased Christian writers, there isn’t one writing outside the Bible in all of ancient history that clearly refers to Jesus of Nazareth. The decision to dedicate my life to a deity requires at least one shred of conclusive evidence. Your lord knows non believers exist as a result of this, yet he makes no attempt to supply proof. How can the bible claim god wants all in heaven if he doesn’t make efforts to ensure that we all believe in him?

12. Paul says Christianity lives or dies on the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:14-17). Yet Jesus made many promises concerning his return during the lifetime of his then followers. (Matthew 16:28: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom”. Matthew 23:36, 24:34, Mark.9:1, 13:30, Luke 9:27, 21:32 & John 21:22) None of these prophecies have come true. Does this not make Jesus a false prophet? If so wouldn’t that make Christianity invalid?

13. I find the idea that a man had to die for my sins revolting. If God was truly omnipotent he could have simply forgiven us. What kind of deity, would execute one child in order to forgive it’s others? Modern society would call an individual like this sadistic, insane and cruel. Surely, you would not worship a child killer, why do you expect me to? Would you find a judge worthy of the title who would allow my child to be executed in lieu of my sins?

14. John 14:12 states a follower in Jesus can perform any of his works and do it even greater. If you continue to insist I believe in Jesus, it is only fair I may ask of you to show just how strong your faith is. After all, you would be my “mentor” in Christ. I’m not a believer as of yet, but surely you are. Would you mind perhaps resurrecting a dead relative or walking on water?

15. Okay, obviously you didn’t do number 14 and backed out with the “this is metaphorical” excuse. Surely you can try Mark 16:17-1 8 which says believers can drink “any deadly thing” and “it shall not hurt” them. But I don’t think you would be naive enough to drink any arsenic offered. Perhaps I’m wrong and you would be willing to test the Book’s veracity-”lay it on the line” so to speak?

16. All right, so now you have backed out of two of my questions. I’m starting to think you don’t really care about my salvation as much as you claim. Well, unlike your Jehovah, I shall be kind and offer a third chance at redemption. Consider Jesus’ teaching in Luke 6:30 “Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.” Perhaps, if you emptied your wallet and “give of thee” I may seriously ponder accepting Jesus as my savior.

Arachne • Ryan M. said • Arachne, thank you for your analysis. It was well thought out, and it's obvious that you have read more of the bible than the average person.

* I have read the bible (King James Version), however, what I posted came from the site called http://www.evilbible.com/

This is why I ask, why such criticism? The bible is a collection of ancient texts---a "book of the world" which has served as a guide for human morality.

* IF it has guided morality (morality is subjective), why have the book(s) and religion(s) caused so much hate and death?

Yes, I agree that it doesn't always makes sense. It doesn't necessarily relate to our modern world. Its stories might be more of myth & legend rather than historical fact.
But you don't have to believe every word in the bible in order to grasp its wisdom.

* IF it is just stories more at myth and legend rather than historical fact, why bother with it? What parts of it (book/religion) should be removed to make it more user friendly?

People who take the bible literally are truly missing out on a good book.

*Ah, the thing is that most do not read the book and what they do read or hear, they take as fact. How can this problem be rectified if people are not educated? If you have the answers, I would love to hear them. Perhaps you can enlighten Robert S. because he really needs enlightenment.

Arachne • Robert S. said • Arachne is another sage who knows things about everyone and everything including what I need.

* I never said that. There you go trying to be a ventriloquist again.

Now how is that possible since she also knows nothing about me or what I know and don't know.

* Robert, I kind of know what you don't know. You don't know that god is fiction.

But it is just easier to go after the person. That doesn't require any thought or good argument.

* Whatever you say sweetie, however, I have to go get my little violin.

Robert, please stop crying. After all the petty pinches you put in, I am sure you can defend yourself without a self-pity party.


Arachne • Jeanne P said • Arachne, you post a lot of other people interpretations: " I have read the bible (King James Version), however, what I posted came from the site called http://www.evilbible.com/"

Is it just more expedient, since you agree with it totally? And if so, how is that different form Syed quoting the Koran?

*Jeanne, I thought you were smarter than that. I guess I gave you too much credit.

Arachne • Robert S. said • Still personal Arachne. You don't see it because you have hate inside of you and that is what comes through in your posts.

*Robert, you assume that I hate because I do not hang onto your coattails. Actually, you make me laugh out loud. Therefore, I am a happy camper.

Arachne • Robert S. said • Arachne • And did you use words like savagery, fool, STFU and the other colorful language... I was referring to the words you and Roi post not what I post.

* No duh. I know what you were saying. Perhaps you did not note: why don't you admit that you enjoy our colorful language as you only write in shades of gray.

Arachne • Robert S. said • I'm glad you're happy Arachne. You hate becasue that is what you post, hate and you post from hate sites.

* Poor sweet Robert. The link is not from a hate site, however, it is from a site that notes problems in the bible. Don't you see that? Are you not open to another's perspective?

Easy to see.

* You easily see god too from what I understand. Have you seen his good book explored in such a way or have you not read it? Perhaps if you read it you did not understand it. Yup. That could be the case. No matter. Are you still willing to defend that which is so diabolical?

Arachne • Robert S. said • And of course evilbible is not a hate site? But it seems to be OK to promote hate, here.

*Robert, to me it seem that you promote hate, however, that is just my opinion.

Arachne • Milda, if you don't know about the old and new testaments, how can you make any claim about what jesus represented in the fairy tales of the new testament?

Your statement is not wise.

Arachne • Robert S. said • Is that it?

Tim? Arachne?: Roi? Any more insults?

*Why does the bible insult you? Are you afraid that others may see exactly what hatred in spewed within the confines of the book? Is that why you view evil bible as a hate site? The bible is a hateful piece of literature. I am glad you finally see that.

Arachne • Milda Y. said • @Tim,

"But I repeat the question: has Arachne misquoted the bible? If not why are you upset. It is afterall the book you believe in is it not? "

Sorry but these quotes were also cited from Bible by Arachne and I read them again and again. I don't see anything wrong with them, do you? Does Jesus speak of war, killing, abuse, etc.?

*Did you read the heading of what this was about? It was in regard to jesus lying.

Arachne • Robert S. said • No Arachne the hate comes from your words.

*Do you mean the bible postings? I would agree that they are hateful, but those words are not my words. They come from YOUR bible. Who really wrote that good book and why was it written?

Robert you say that the bible should not be taken literally right? Well then why should it be accepted at all? Should I accept T'was The Night Before Xmas as gospel as well?

No one is stuffing anything down your throat that you haven't supposedly already eaten. Isn't that so?

Arachne • Milda, what have you read on jesus? I suggest you read the bible and then tell me how well you like it. Do start at the beginning. The beginning is the old testament.

BTW, are you aware there is no evidence that a person jesus ever existed?

Arachne • Robert S.  said • We are talking abut what I have already posted about not taking the Bible literally.

Now you are stuffing it down my throat, the same thing you don't like but its' ok for you to do to me.

Robert S. • Arachne said • No one is stuffing anything down your throat that you haven't supposedly already eaten. Isn't that so?

* I don't see your beef with my words.

Arachne • Matilda said ~ And what is lying exactly?

* Adjective: Not telling the truth: "he's a lying, cheating, snake in the grass".
Synonyms: mendacious - false - untruthful - deceitful - untrue

* IF we were to take those words in the literal sense, we would see that they cannot be actualized by the supposed person who said them. Therefore, the words are deceitful i.e., lies.

I don't believe in a personal God, but I do believe that if one puts his heart and soul in something, whatever that may be, he may achieve it.

* Are you saying that you are your own god and thus responsible for your actions or lack thereof? Are you saying that if you want something done, you go out and do it yourself?

I believe in Global conciousness, in the power of thoughts, so can I call that God and relate it to these verses...

* I too believe in the power of thought as I do think. However, I do not associate my thoughts to any god. I am solely responsible for myself. Are you akin?

Arachne • @Matilda ~ Words of wisdom are always welcome.

Milda  • Arachne,

Then you and I are on the same page here.....BTW, the name is Milda, not Matilda!

So why then attack a book, a character, or the wisdom when it’s the people that are using it as a weapon?

* I like your page. :-) The book is the gun. Guns in themselves are not deadly for they cannot get up and harm anyone. Guns don't kill people; people kill people. If someone were walking around with a loaded gun and the safety were off, wouldn't you want to fire the gun to show them the damage it can do when not handled properly? The good books have been used for centuries by humans who use them as a weapon against other humans. The weapon should therefore be exposed for what it is.

*Sorry for the name mix-up Milda.

Arachne • Robert S., I extend my hand in peace and trust that our arguments will be of a friendly nature.

To those of you who have gone, I wish you a goodnight. For those of you still here, do have a grand and glorious. Peace out for now.

Is it possible that God and the universe are one and the same thing? The debate.

Syed said• @Arachne- Which god does not exist?

Arachne • No god exits. I don't care which one you are thinking or talking about. No god means no god.

Syed said - Could you describe your definition of god please?

Arachne • So, you want my definition of something that does not exist? Sure. My definition of god is mass delusion. It could be viewed as a form of idiocracy.

Syed said • We have developed multiple concepts of God, however there should be some criteria to describe God that everyone could agree irrespective of religion, tribes, nationalities etc.

Arachne • Who is the royal we? As for the royal we developing concepts of god, I think you should explore what a concept is.

concept:   noun
1. a general notion or idea; conception.

1. an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.

1. a directly conceived or intuited object of thought.

If you have to develop a concept of what god is, you are saying that god is man made just like plastic. The only difference between god and plastic is that plastic is real and will be around a lot longer than your concept.

It is hoped that the dummied down society will get off their duff and explore history, the dictionary, science, logic, and self.

For starters, why don't you take a gander at The Malleus Maleficarum of Heinrich Kramer and James Sprencer. See the history, explore the lack of logic, and then explore yourself. Then have a look at this: Summis desiderantes affectibus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summis_desiderantes

When you write, make sure the words you use bring your statement home as you are not doing well in your batting average. After that, why don't you look into science that provides empirical data and not fairy tales. Hell, even theory is subject to change to fact as theory is proven. The same can't and will never be said about god. To me god is a typo of dog spelled backwards.

Alex, potty mouth refers to curse words and I have used none.

Robert S., I am not troubled, but again you assume.

If I really want to use my potty mouth, I can go to The Void where it is not only allowed, but encouraged. Speaking my mind in the words that I do is not offensive to all, but it is offensive to you. I am sorry that you are so easily offended.

Do you realize that when you write to me that you also taunt? If what I say is so meaningless, why make a big deal about it? Do you not see that you are being contrary?

On topic: God and the universe are NOT one and the same thing because the universe exists and god does not. God has never been proven to exist nor shall this control mechanism ever be proven to exist. Blinders are for horses who need tunnel vision to go forward. I like my peripheral vision as it gives me choices to go forward in the direction I choose.

If we want to get real about this conversation, why don't we discuss what is objective and not what is subjective. How does that sound?

Eva-Maria • Dear Arachne -- Is not explosive, uncontrolled speech a defense mechanism? You are safe with us. So please feel comfortable here expressing your true intelligent self.

Arachne • Eva, show me where I am explosive so that I may argue my position.

I am very controlled in what I say. Therefore, it is not a defense mechanism.

Isn't everyone safe in the virtual unless one's information is stolen via hacking, keystroke logger, their computer is taken over by another remotely, or a virus is sent via e-mail?

Thank you for your concern, but I am quite comfortable and I hope you are too.

Do have a grand and glorious.

Tim • I for one support Arachne's right to call a spade a spade and shoot from the hip, It is refreshing. I think we need more intolerance in society. We need to be intolerant of seeds of fear being sown in children’s minds by nonsense that was written by ignorant people in times of ignorance.

Arachne • If objective thinking cannot be applied to the spiritual, would you say that the spiritual does not exist outside self? Would you agree it is of a personal nature and not of nature itself?

One could think (and some do) that fairies and elves exist, however, does it make it so?

Science is subject to change based on new developments. Theories such as other planets existing have become fact. Astronomers noted how light from a star wobbles as the planet rotates around it. There are other planets out there which have been verified, however, they are not hospitable to human life.

We know that by observing a particle we influence its behavior (as well as its partner particle) in that we take away its potential location/velocity by giving it an absolute location or velocity. However, who has observed god in such a way?

Cogito ergo sum.

Robert S. • Arachne but how do you know with 100% certainty that it's actually you thinking about you?

And you're not Descartes as far as I know.

Arachne • Syed, your argument is old and stale. Come up with something new. By the way, I don't NEED to listen to you. You do not have power or authority over me. You are not Stanley Milgram and I am not part of your experiment. You are familiar with the obedience experiment right? I have a choice to either read you or ignore you.

Arachne • Robert, let's say that no one is thinking for themselves and that god is planting the seeds of thought in everyone, if I kill someone or many, god did it through me and thus I am not guilty. Is that correct? From what you are writing, the old saying "The devil made me do it." should read "God made me do it."

Robert S. • No Arachne, to my way of thinking God has nothing to do with what you do. You have free will to do the right thing or the wrong thing.

However, if you sincerely ask for guidance you'll get it but not in the form of a message on you cell phone. Then you still decide what to do. The choice is always yours and yours alone.

Arachne • Thomas, atoms do exist and are comprised of neutrons, protons, and electrons and I will not argue that. What I will argue is that monkeys, dogs, cats, and uranium are made of atoms as well. Unfortunately, those particular atomic structures do not reason as we do. How might they know they exist? If you can reason that you may or may not be touching your desk, or if you are actually here, would it make a difference if someone were to kill you? Would you die gallantly or would your animal run to save its virtual hide?

Robert S. • Arachne but how do you know with 100% certainty that it's actually you thinking about you?

Arachne • Man, you talk in circles. Did you know that? Robert, you just told me that I have free will and the right to choose from right and wrong. Does that mean that you believe that I think and therefore I am?

In case you forgot, I initially said "cogito ergo sum."

Speaking in true lowlife form, I have to book as I am running late for my vacation. This is a deaf thread man and I look forward to seeing how much further the dog can chase its virtual tale (no spelling mistake).

Arachne • God(s) and goddess(es) are creations of the human mind. The universe is not a creation the human mind and is therefore open to exploration by ALL as it is objective. Since the majority here believe in one god or another, might I ask which particular god killed the gods of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Norse et al? Also, since there are still a couple of gods floating around, why are these gods not battling for supremacy over the masses instead of the masses fighting for supremacy of their belief in their supposed god? Does anyone see lunacy at play here? Yes?

Arachne • Syed said • @Arachne- There is only one uncreated God and all are fake gods created by human minds.

What is an uncreated god and how do you know that the other gods are not also uncreated? Mind you, what you say makes no sense. Do you think the gods should do battle for supremacy? The god who wins takes all the flock. Does this sound good to you? Mind you, this battle would NOT HAVE ANY HUMAN INTERVENTION. The gods alone must fight or play a hand of poker where the winner takes all. How might the gods fight or play cards? Hum.

Arachne • Syed said • The way I came to know about the onness of God & one Creator because I discovered a purpose in my life. If we dont have any purpos ethen what difference do you see between a human being and a predator or a cattle or any other animal?

How do you account for those who have a purpose in their lives, but do not believe in god? If one day you woke up and your religious leaders told you that your god had died, would you lose purpose in your life? What would life then mean to you?

As you say there is only one god and other believers say the same about their god, doesn't this cause a problem? Again, there are a few gods still floating around so, according to the believers, yours is not the only one. Can you account for that?

Arachne • Syed, who created the creator? Please don't spew BS with me as I don't buy into your illogical dialogue.

I DO NOT have a vague understanding of god as you put it. I DO have a solid understanding that humans created god due to their own ignorance.

How did you become indoctrinated?        

Arachne • Syed, my purpose in life is to experience all there is to experience. If you would like, I can break it down for you as best I can.

Experiences such as risk, danger, love, joy, sorrow, pain, pleasure, sex, children, grandchildren, friends, neighbors, taste, touch, sight, smell, sound, painting, drawing, creating, writing, reading, having sex in the woods while camping so that it starts a chain reaction of love making amongst the other campers, engaging in dialogue with street people, street musicians, and the homeless, and learning and seeking knowledge in areas that interest me. There is more, but I prefer not to write a novella at this time.

In addition, the purpose of MY life is to rub off on others and have them rub off on me. Despite the fact that I don't agree with you does not mean that I do not take a piece of you with me. Comprende?

Arachne • Syed said • @Maggie- You said, 'How did you become indoctrinated?"
Why do you think someone has to be indoctrinated to believe in one God? What is the rationale?

A child who is not taught of god does not know of god. Therefore you were taught.

In the event you do not know what the definition of indoctrination is I will lay it out for you as noted in Oxford University Press Dictionary: indoctrinate >verb cause to accept a set of beliefs uncritically through repeated instruction.
-DERIVATIVES indoctrination >noun indoctrinator >noun.
-ORIGIN originally in the sense 'teach or instruct': from French endoctriner, from doctrine 'doctrine'.

Again, how did you become indoctrinated?

Arachne • Bill H., I was born and raised a catholic, however, it was against my will. Now I am my own god and I worship no others.

Arachne • Syed said • @Arachne- Have you heard something is called 'Natural Instinct'?

Yes I have Syed. All animals have it, however, not all animals reason as humans do. In the event you are not aware, other animals (mammals), marsupials, insects, arachnids, avis, et al do not believe in god and yet they have natural instinct. How do you account for that?

Why are you avoiding the direct question? Do you have a problem answering it? As I think you are having a comprehension problem, I will present it again. In the event you do not understand what I am saying, please note that which you do not understand and we can go over it.

I will restate my question: A child who is not taught of god does not know of god.
Therefore you were taught (indoctrinated).

In the event you do not know what the definition of indoctrination is I will lay it out for you as noted in Oxford University Press Dictionary: indoctrinate >verb cause to accept a set of beliefs uncritically through repeated instruction.
-DERIVATIVES indoctrination >noun indoctrinator >noun.
-ORIGIN originally in the sense 'teach or instruct': from French endoctriner, from doctrine 'doctrine'.

Again, HOW did you become indoctrinated? Please answer the question without using god. Thank you.

Arachne • "Is it a human being or a human doing?"To err is human, to forgive is divine...
Can it be said that divinity can evolve out of forgiveness? Humans err more oft than not yet see more so in others than themselves. Shortcomings of status occur when reflections are not seen in those akin. Thus, those that can extend forgiveness without piety are more akin to god than human.

Who shall cast the first stone? Many. They are oh too human in doing. ~ Arachne

Arachne • To what do we owe our allegiance? God, man, country? What purpose does it serve? Does it serve us in the process or does it take away from us in the end?

I owe allegiance unto myself
I have no country and
I bow before no god nor man
Unless it be a man of my choosing
Therefore, will he be my god?
No he will not be my god as man is fallible
Yet he will be revered as a god
In turn, I expect to be revered as well
In thus doing, am I true unto myself?
Has my allegiance been maintained?
I believe so

Allegiance to self means that you bear full and absolute responsibility for your actions or lack thereof and you do not place the blame/credit on others ~ Arachne

Arachne  • Syed said: A student of the Quran should, first of all, have firm belief in the Quran and does his utmost to practice it in his daily life. You may call me fanatic or may be fundamentalist after sometime, I care a least what people call me.

How can one have a firm belief in something they do not know unless they study it and conform to the belief?

Syed, in you saying that you are student of the Quran, you admit indoctrination. As I have already given you the definition of indoctrination, you have just confirmed yourself as INDOCTRINATED.

Thank you. 



   

The Concept of Now...

The concept of “now” is just that: a concept.  How can “now” exist when it has one foot in the past and the other in the future?  Even before a mouth opens to perform speech, the brain has formed thoughts into words and words into a sentences.  In essence, what one says in the supposed “now” are past thoughts projecting themselves into the future via speech.  Why do we even bother with “now” when “now” does not exist? 

Present time, precise moments, and present circumstances define “now.”  As time moves forward, how can “now” be idle?  It defies logic. 

Reality is also a concept.  If looking at what defines reality we could walk away with the notion that everyone experiences a different reality.  A microbiologist or a physicist may not see the world as everyone else.  Therefore, their reality would differ based on their being able to see things that most people don’t.  We can’t see gravity, but it is there.  In addition, gravity can be reproduced where there is little gravity simply by adding velocity.   “1- the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them 2- a thing that is actually experienced or seen 3- the quality of being lifelike 4- the state or quality of having existence or substance.

As for god, those in power (past and present) use him/her/them as a tool for manipulation.  There has been so much bloodshed in the name of god than there has been for anything else.  In the event no one noticed, god blesses Amerika in the form of a bible which indicates favoritism to xtainity.  Bah humbug! ~ Arachne ~ 6/13/12

Spherical Being:

Spherical Being:

Imagine the ingredients:

velocity = x (speed does not matter) 
air = zero (0)
reference points = zero (0)
visibility = zero (0)
space and time = irrelevant
person = one (1)

Reference:  Leonardo da Vinci’s Vitruvian Man - Essentially 360 degrees ad infinitum positions as sphere is virtual.

The mechanics of the human body can outline the sphere of itself: back, front, top, and bottom.  Arms above head to arms at one’s side is almost a complete circle as is arms out front to arms out back is the same.  As the drawing is two dimensional, a three dimensional image would allow for ∞ number of positions as the smallest fraction of movement is still movement in which another can always be added.  Without reference, all points within the sphere are actualized in all spaces at all times (*god effect) because space and time become irrelevant.  How many rings and or spokes would it take to fill a virtual sphere if not accounting for size?  Think about a wheel whose spokes extend past the end of the virtual rim in which there would always be room for more spokes.  ⊕⊗ These sections can have their mere 4 spokes extended from the center past the virtual perimeter while still maintaining 360 regardless of the size.  The same could be said about the universe.  Is one person the center of their universe?

*Throw one person into a hole of infinite depth and width which has had all its air vacuumed from it.  Despite the person falling, he/she will not be aware of the up, down, back, nor front.  From the person's perspective, it will seem that nothing is happening.  Without air, velocity will not be felt and thus the person will feel as though they are floating: weightless.    

Spherical being becomes virtual UNLESS the being can **feel its own body.

**Think phantom leg, arm, hand, foot, toe, et cetera.  Feeling is had despite the fact the appendage is missing.  However, this does not account for touching self.  If one cannot see self, it is possible to think in terms of a dream state where the dreamer dreams they touch and feel their own arm, but in realty, they aren’t touching or feeling anything.  As the spherical being heads through the infinite hole, creation is up for grabs through imagination as the mind still functions. 

The first time I wrote something like this, the person was dead and didn’t know it.  In the above case, the person is alive, but the goings on are the same. ~ Arachne - June 12, 2012


Seasons In The Abyss

Seasons in the Abyss is a great song, but it is also a great idea. Imagine a dreamlike state where the greatest point of gravitational pull gives way and a falling occurs. All that surrounds you will be darkened, you may or may not feel the velocity at which you fall. Let’s say you feel a tremendous pull and your hair is flying backward and your clothes are all puffed out as if you had jumped out of a plane, only you can’t see the puff. You can’t even see the nose on your face much less your own arm(s). Perhaps you may feel a sense of fear in that you know not what will happen next, however, what if after what appears like 5 minutes (it could be 10 seconds, but time will not be something you will be aware of in full unless you have a big glow in the dark clock) you decide to have some fun with this event. Who knows, it could be your last and you won’t have to worry about feeling foolish at the playfulness of your nature as no one will see you as you can’t even see yourself. Okay, let’s say you decide you want to roll around in the space or dive down instead of doing the horizontal (if in fact you are horizontal) looking whose knows where as there is no sky, walls, or ground. All you have is the feeling of your own body and the sense experience of falling along with all the thoughts (if any) that are running through your head. You could be Superman even with your eyes open as you envision flying into a city to catch the bad guys, or you could be Peter Pan flying off to do battle with Captain Hook, or you are Alice in Wonderland and imagine you will catch the rabbit when you reach the bottom of the rabbit hole. Of course these are stories you are familiar with, but let’s say you decide just to be you. In all the darkness of the abyss that you have fallen into, time and space no longer exist. If you cannot see yourself, how do you know that you exist? Is it because you are thinking and imagine you feel a velocity of sort due to the rushing of air around your supposed body? Let’s now remove the rushing air and leave a calm weightless feeling. Now let’s us go one step further. What if you did not see that truck coming and death was instantaneous? Would you know the difference? Tis but a question. Other questions arise as well. How long is a season in the abyss and what would you make of it? You now have an environmental and physical tabula rasa of sorts. Do with it what you will. ~ Arachne ~ January 28, 2009 @ 5:16 p.m. EST